Please Turn the Page

An abridged and imperfect
transcript of multiple meetings.





Andrej Kapor
Arjon Dunnewind
Artemis Gryllaki
Bram Koning
Clara Balaguer
Heerko van der Kooij
Karl Moubarak
Lilian Stolk


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Simon Browne









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The names of people
have been redacted for
choral voicing of a
collective process. They
are only present when
they represent sources
and external experts in
“formal” presentations.

The names of things with
enough visibility and
audibility have likewise
been redacted, such as
global territories of power
and proprietary software.


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REDACTED: defining participatory live-casting?

REDACTED: to build platforms that allow visitors, not only audience but also participants and collaborators, in the venue and also people that participate online, finding ways to create a natural environment to engage with people in the same space (online vs offline dual realities.)

REDACTED: platforms is a big term. maybe we use the terms tools or formats?

REDACTED: We should see this constellation (rather than calling it a platform) not just as a mix of technological concepts, approaches and solutions but also including  sociological and psychological concepts, approaches and solutions. The aim in the end is to build an environment where on- and offline bodies meet, exchange across these thresholds of presence.

REDACTED: dumb question, how are we understanding platform, are we talking about tools and instances? centralized is how i understand.

REDACTED: you could see it as a constellation
of tools.


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REDACTED: femke snelting used the word platframe, a constellation of tools and people working together rather than a simple technical definition of an instance of a software running somewhere.

REDACTED: I sometimes think of it as an ecosystem—a space where you could be in a longer time, take it in. the platframe makes sense as something bigger than just the tool.

REDACTED: what is inside the frame? Simultaneity—participation within the event itself. I’d like to think about what happens outside of this frame. Participation and engagement could be something that happens before the event. a deeper connection. What is live, actually? Are we talking about feeling alive, coming to life?

REDACTED: That’s a good question, especially now that ppl are really tired of the endless stream.

REDACTED: maybe it’s also about what happens after the event. REDACTED’s virtual bar worked, it created chitchat around the event.

REDACTED: It’s an interesting question. I did an interview with Esther Hammelburg.

I asked, “when do you feel you’re part of something live?”

“Time, space, togetherness,” was her answer.


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We’re usually translating the main program to hybrid form, but there are many other site-specific experiences we are not translating, e.g. standing in a line waiting to enter a theatre show. These are important parts of a live experience.

REDACTED: thinking of ppl who have different forms of consuming information e.g. distraction-full vs distraction-free, some people are neurologically wired for distraction, others are not. can you choose whether you enter the participatory rabbit hole or not?


REDACTED: We felt the same, we tried a lot of “water cooler”/hangout situations. Planning conviviality is problematic. It’s also a bit overwhelming. The last thing we did which worked was to have less involved activities, which meant ppl could still hang out, optional 30 minutes on a different spreadsheet over 6 days, drawing together based on instructions and prompts in the cells of the spreadsheet. in retrospect a neat way of continuing conversations that didn’t need a digital bar or streaming video and audio to each other, not so demanding.

REDACTED: covid hybrid events, there was this urge to over-stream everything we could, video, multiple angles, hop to this platform, then weigh in on the chat, then extra emails, then restream and pad. you have to always be stimulated and have moderators in all places, making sure everyone participates. it causes overstimulation and exhaustion.


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REDACTED: Now I feel we are going into finding modes of communication that can be more calm and also work after an event. Maybe only audio for a specific amount of time, only pad +1 (pad performances!), only seeing prompts there and everyone with questions, reading and writing together, this is the opposite of the overstreaming and overstimulation. People have diff times of participation, sometimes you cannot feel time… . More singular modes of communicating in between, not only about video calls with cameras on all the time.

REDACTED: It’s a matter also of who are the bodies being discussed, E.g. are they marginalized bodies? Closer to the center you have subsidized time to spend on developing and maintaining alternative platforms. Further from the center, one is held hostage by the time that precarity demands. Those with leisure and luxury cannot be held to the same standards of what software is to be used.

REDACTED: the conceptual framework was to unlearn what we know about convenient user interfaces and get used to other ones.

REDACTED: something quite interesting with spreadsheets, familiarity of the software, how it comes with a comforting grid—those without design training can participate. how do you lay the groundwork for the uninitiated to enter? Are the lines of sight and audible voice the only ways to manifest your engagement? consumptive demand to see faces and hear voices as indications of presence.


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REDACTED: we did a summer school completely online. Offline before, about 30 people, online we were 80 people from 20 countries, logistical challenge to get everyone online at the same time, redevelop workshop scripts, it didn’t have to be synchronous, could also be distributed in time and space. we kind of enjoyed having big group, the international aspect. what we missed is the getting together, we had the feeling that we didn’t meet any new people. to extend our network the next year, we decided to distribute the summer school in 3 places. work could happen in different times. A few moments with video, but we tried to minimize those.

REDACTED: Thinking about what you mentioned before REDACTED, situations that don’t need to show face or have a voice. Big Blue Button Ouija, we used the multiuser whiteboard function of BBB to have a kind of “séance,” with 1 person asking questions, and others in the room drawing and writing. was supposed to be just online, but there were people in the space and i couldn’t say,“no, you can’t participate.” In online experience hosted at constant, it was quite intimate and a real time experience. We did it at night, with incense burning !! and candles add to the mood. But at Page Not Found in the Hague, it was a complete failure because we were all in the same room. Kind of awkward to be looking at our laptops while answering questions in the same room. Live-casting is not necessarily just about tools and platforms in isolation, but also about the combination of them with the environment.

REDACTED: how do you build this fabric of communication? Intimacy without bodies in the same space. Coming from a country where


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migratory separation is a fact, we are more ready to deal with and less fussy about the loss of physical contact in hybrid realities. Also, what is the possibility of exiting homophily? How can we meaningfully consider the audiences of the elsewhere?

REDACTED: refugees using REDACTED PROPRIETARY MESSAGING PLATFORM to cross borders, live-casting their routes to a narrow audience. how people use chatting platforms as travel log of urgency. forms of storytelling, sharing of joy at survival. a more trustworthy way to sing news. Life/live literally hangs in the balance.




External Experts

ESTHER HAMMELBURG presenting a Presentation
AYMERIC MANSOUX presenting a Rant



Claim is that there is no live experience without media
what people post in the moment – live streams and live stories.


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I conducted analysis of visual similarities (thumbnail collage) to check patterns.


people want to show that they’re there
it influences the experience of being there

TIME live is being now here together
PLACE live events take place in hybrid physical and mediated spaces
SOCIAL CONTEXT (being here now together)

being live means aligning these 3 things


The now is related to memory
that you want to capture and share
experience of the moment
shaped by how we keep and share this data



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experience of this place is formed or shaped [by its mediation]
joining event from your living room
write themselves in the event space
have the experience of being there live
but they’re in their living room
deliberately not use social media and use their senses
being there physically is a [multi]sensorial experience
see with your own eyes


“it’s nice to let others join in your experience… shared experience, not just for you”
social circles

do u recognize yourself?
am not a social media user

have you researched any political activism?
i’ve studied mainly entertainment festival type of events
but also pride
people find it important to share and use hashtags to connect to the issues of pride
but no have not looked at activism, can point you towards sources that do

the temporal now


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is it really now?
they deliberately put away their phones
being present in the now is strengthened
one person in pride walk, interviewed them after
they didn’t make any photos because didn’t want to live it as a memory
when you’re photographing you’re busy with the idea of rewatching

when it comes to the media that’s being used itself to create liveness
2 parties — ppl participating + the organizers/media partners
What are differences in the ways that they were live-streaming?
professional images blur the experience of being real
i’d rather look at shady REDACTED SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORM story from a user that gives me feeling of joining in, authenticity of imperfection
original purpose of REDACTED SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORM was to imitate polaroids
super 8
balance between the spoon-fed polish of the organizer or affiliate and the amateur content of the typical use

am i experiencing what i am experiencing or am i experiencing what i am going to see tomorrow on my phone?

[all the bandwidth waste]
[what does it mean to archive at this scale]


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[for the sheer pleasure of representation of what may already be hyper-represented]
did u record any questioning of the sustainability of hyper-representation?
no real reflection really, not in that sense
what about issue of free labor providing free content?
It’s an issue in academic sense
for users it doesn’t feel that way
people feel obligation to post because maybe their following on REDACTED SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORM is connected to the pride issue
living in small communities where they couldn’t come out
she felt obligation to post
she knew followers would be motivated
but they don’t use these academic terms, the users

maybe the organizers should?
are you afraid?
of never having a real experience anymore?
no, these are new real experiences
i don’t see it as a drama
do we want commercial platforms shape the way we experience the world?

any festivals successful at providing alternative infrastructure?


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commercial interest of that sort dissolved a little bit at the end of the pandemic
dutch public broadcasting is looking for ways to involve people using other platforms because they don’t want to be dependent on REDACTED SOCIAL MEDIA GIANT or NEW NAME FOR REDACTED SOCIAL MEDIA GIANT or whatever

are these platforms also taking on too big of a responsibility in terms of defining liveness, togetherness, and nowness?
large scale infrastructure monopolies on
memory and experience

segue into


i will take the rant as a compliment

First—happy to hear relationship with liveness and media
we have already been in hybrid systems for long time
I took the train here and it was a hybrid experience
you are essentially with materialization of algorithmic systems that communicate w low wage persons who operate API to see if your ride is legal

open question?


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are we talking about designing experiences that are symptomatic of future hard lockdown?
Is the pandemic is over?
or are we prepping for future disaster?
at the core, we haven’t really left the idea of radio show w caller interaction
except now with tons of matrix and processing power involved

platforms are shaping a type of interactivity
that’s not open, claim to be,
but they are constrained
we don’t have
an online
we are just stuck on websites
jumping form one platform to another.
everything is a website and everything is a meeting.

computers and screens have been creating this lifestyle system where we are constantly projecting ourselves
experience economy
small micro subcultural communities that enforce a hyperreal experience for escaping hard problems

hybrid discourse
a trigger
find a way to counter


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REDACTED CONTINENT MUSIC FESTIVAL chats while watching the event
this happens outside of the main system of broadcast

consequence is that implies to rethink what is an event for a cultural organization
this is more exciting as opposed to just forcing a certain model and pushinh it with more tech
is it the nature of the event to be hybrid?
don’t sugar coat w words of hybridity or experience or interactivity
preventing to actually look at what the event is really about
u can say
we chose a passive format because is what we need, it’s ok, admit it, less is more

what does it mean to constantly stream and store hi res media
we can’t pretend that it doesn’t have a cost

the region invaded by data centers
government starting to think that they should be regulated but it’s too late
can’t track them now because hiding
hijacking the renewable energy of their region
offsetting renewable energy that should have gone to consumers
diesel engines
to test that their back up systems are working every month


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and a water problem
sucking the land dry, hijacking the drinkable water because it’s used for cooling down their systems instead

getting to the point where we should stop doing this.
The cultural sector has responsibility and privileged position to raise the alarm.

interesting take on hybridity
that steps outside of the event
looks more at social and technical
creating actual relationships
an extended exchange to build trust and relationships,
not one night only

what does it mean when you treat audience as community?
do they have ownership over your infrastructure?
decoupling from vocabulary that you felt you had to appropriate
classic systems are ok, just be explicit.
dragged into pressure of organizing, provide funding, easy to get caught in the things that you may profoundly
disagree with
but you need to survive

if several organizations syndicate and rethink how these things are run and organized and funded then you throw weight and negotiate power


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collective bargaining
it’s difficult when people are doing things on their own


Could you envision to do a hybrid set-up that would be radically different, less screen-based?
There is a reason why there are formulas and formats.
The question is can you run an event that is radically different, with same amount of budget you have now?

Infrastructurally, its awkward to justify to funders that there is this much money that needs to be spent on resource heavy digital infrastructure and maintenance.
we understand that we don’t want to use some platforms, but it’s not seen as a necessary cost.

when we do accept physical costs as necessary.
A big part of budgets goes to maintaining a physical building
the digital world is no different in that sense.
how can we communicate this to funders and organizers?

“why can’t u put up a live stream without added costs?”


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digital infrastructure needs care


super generic name networked media europe
trying to put in place throughout REDACTED CONTINENT a sovereign media infrastructure

no clue how to do it

can we step out of this highly problematized environment can we do it radically different?
not just have big tech
decentralized approach to network media within

linked to REDACTED CONTINENT culture fund
have meetings
share your opinion
bring up to funders
spell it in black and white and say,
“would you support that?”
enter a political space.
the digital is material.



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apart from the big tech reliance
every small organization self-hosting their own thing
is maybe not as good as sharing infrastructure
more coordination with each other

What about going hybrid as an idea of community?

how do organizations feel about sharing?
i would be comfortable talking with varia
but how do you imagine this being received elsewhere?

we have to also serve the audience
they are used to certain platforms
they know their way around them
they stick to them
how to cover needs that can be different?
why not create an environment we take care of together?

a shared venue?
several organizations coming together to recognize this as important
the scale becomes interesting



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is the strategy to outline these costs in a concrete way to argue for more funding?
But how do you work against social cost,
the environmental impact, the cost of computation?
sharing resources
having conversation rather than competition.
how does this phrase to people who have
the funding capacity?
how do you get around the logic of using an easy proprietary service?
should be clever with how you phrase that.

interesting also to look at the social concept and make a more sociological tool kit, explain why you have certain options and then just leave it to the field.

Mr. potato head approach, plug in whatever you need

liveness brings costs
does everything need to be live?

live could be faster, resist the temptation to fine tune a podcast for days


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There are a lot of funds in REDACTED CONTINENT in comparison to other places. The question for me is:
Who are we bringing to live?
What makes liveness justifiable?
Who participates?

potential access to money and scrutiny
and what is spent on what
the gatekeeping to spend this money differently

dark side is understanding that government is software and admin is software and decision and democracy is algorithmic
in touch with REDACTED NON-WESTERN TECH DEVELOPER to import concept of e-government further privatized and controlled by a dictatorial system


who are we bringing to LIVE/LIFE?



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how do we reinvent social infrastructure and how can technology help?

how do we then frame the technology around this social infrastructure and who participates?

what does it mean to dilate the now into a community relationship?
what does it mean to dilute our experience of natural and social landscapes into higher media dependence?

how can we lower the threshold for people to interact?
how can these actions become group actions?

how can we amplify interaction in social and technical ways to have a stronger hybrid experience? how can we merge the two audiences or make them feel like not two but one, connected in different ways to the event/situation?

if you’re going to make all this effort to build this infrastructure, argue your case to funders… how do you sustain these infrastructures after the event finishes?



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Is it about making the new cool tool with lots of plug-ins, like, one platform with multiple possibilities? or is it about having smaller tools shared amongst us, with the knowledge of how to make and maintain them?


how can we de-duplicate and consolidate all the work that has been done on creating infrastructure for hybrid events and cultural institutions and how do you get cultural institutions to participate in something like this?

can we build and maintain a cooperative venue?

digital or physical?

both! And can we have a set of guidelines to make a federated idea of “venue,” rather than just one, multiple?
can we host each other in each other’s venues?

do we need one research question?



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cooperative sharing infrastructure is interesting case study. how can free culture decide to maintain together something that they find interesting for them, the greatest common denominator?

what is the role of the cultural sector in all this? there is untapped power in the cultural sector to surface societal issues, yet it’s not happening beyond small walled gardens of privileged audiences.

how can we go beyond our usual audiences?
how can we envision a hybrid event where there is less screen, without being anti-tech?

Where is the physicality in the digital, and why does it matter? Is physicality simply a material concern (e.g, environmental impact from massive computation), or is it about how bodies operate within a digital space?